Psyche, Science, and Society

Lyndie England interview

March 19th, 2008

Abu Ghraib MP Lyndie England was interviewed by the German magazine Stern [in English on their web site]. The interview provides further evidence of the ongoing nature of  the abuses at Abu Ghraib and of the collusion of higher-ups in those abuses. It also provides suggestions that waterboarding may have gone on there.

Remember, England and the others were only charged for taking or participating in the photographs. No one was ever charged for committing the abuses at Abu Ghraib. This is undoubtedly because such a prosecution would have opened up the responsibility, right up the Chain of Command for these abuses, from military intelligence and the CIA to the Secretary of Defense and the President.

Here are a few highlights of her account:

The abuse started under the previous company.If true, this constitutes further evidence that the abuse was countenanced and planned:

The company that we relieved was doing the exact same stuff. We just took over from them.

Was Graner already a part of that?

There was a three-week ride-a-long where two of our guys would work with two of their guys to get to know the ropes and during those three weeks Graner would tell me how they were doing this and that.

What do you mean by “this and that”?

Pushing them around, stripping them down, putting them in stress positions, yelling at them.

And:

The torturers and the politicians who are responsible for their actions are getting away with it. Does that make you angry?

Yeah, I think they used us because the unit that was there before us, the 72nd MP Company, was pretty much doing the same things we were. Only they weren’t documenting it. I’m pretty sure that it was the same at other prisons. Only there are no pictures.

The intelligence staff were shown the photographs and said “Great job!”:

How did you react when Graner told you how the detainees were being treated?

Of course it was wrong. I know that now. But when you show the people from the CIA, the FBI and the MI the pictures and they say, “Hey, this is a great job. Keep it up”, you think it must be right. They were all there and they didn’t say a word. They didn’t wear uniforms, and if they did they had their nametags covered.

Which photos did Graner present to them?

All of them. He showed them on his laptop. He’d say, “Hey, let me show you this, this is what we’re supposed to be doing.” And they said, “Yeah, we got great results, keep it up, you’re doing a good job.” He actually got a letter of commendation for the stuff he did.

And:

Why did the people from the intelligence units allow photos to be taken?

I don’t know. They never said, “Hey, you’re not supposed to be taking pictures.” I never heard them say that at all. They never even said, “Don’t get caught.” Everybody knew what was going on. Once they heard there were pictures, they wanted to see. Graner started making copies on floppy disks or memory sticks. And he didn’t even want money from them. So they took it and they showed it to their buddies and their buddies wanted a copy and so on and so on. And the hearsay around was that it was okay. It was approved by MI and the OGA.

Military intelligence and other intell staff gave orders for the MPs to “soften up” the prisoners, including the use of sleep deprivation, nakedness, and hypothermia:

Who told you to soften the prisoners up for interrogation?

The OGA and MI-guys…

…the Other Government Agencies, meaning CIA and FBI…

Don’t ask me their names because I don’t know. They always spoke to Graner directly.

And what was the term they used?

“Soften em up.” “We’re trying to get information out of this guy and he hasn’t been cooperating for so many days.” So they would give us instructions on sleep deprivation, on what we could feed them, and if they wanted them to be naked, we would be told to take their mattress and blankets away so they’re sleeping on the cold floor. After the end of October it gets pretty damned cold.

Some type of abuse occurred in the showers which led detainees to scream. England believes there may have been waterboarding going on in there:

Did you do any water boarding?

No, I didn’t. And I didn’t witness it. But that doesn’t mean it wasn’t done. Because a lot of the time the interrogators would take the prisoners into the showers and close the doors and we would have to put like sheets or blankets up over the windows. We could hear what was going on but we couldn’t see.

You heard screams?

Yeah. Sometimes.

The missing photographs may show detainees being bitten by dogs:

There is talk about new pictures that are even harsher than the ones we know.

I know there were some harsher pictures they had at the time of the trial that the media decided not to expose.

What was on those pictures?

You see the dogs biting the prisoners. Or you see bite marks from the dogs. You can see MPs holding down a prisoner so a medic can give him a shot. If those had been made public at the time, then the whole world would have looked at those and not at mine.

England believes that Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld was well aware of what was occurring at Abu Ghraib:

The former Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, called you and your colleagues the “rotten apples” of the military. Bush claimed to be ashamed of what you did.

Well, back then I thought: How can they say that when it was happening all over Iraq. The same thing is happening in Guantanamo now and other places. We knew that our officers knew about it and our sergeants. We thought if they know then somebody else knows. And I really do still think that Rumsfeld knew what was going on. I mean he had been there while I was there at that prison. And if he was there I know he knew what was going on. How could he have not known? And Bush? He’s the headman.

Read the whole interview here.

Entry Filed under: CIA, Interrogation, Iraq, Torture, War Crimes